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Old 12-27-2010, 09:42 PM
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Default Dodge Cummins starter solenoid relay issue, but not the relay

I am posting this for someone to tell you guys what is going on with his truck. It won't start with the key and I went through everything with him and he is getting a lot of weird happenings. He swapped in the nv4500 and just got to the point of starting it but it is a 1998 Dodge Cummins with the P7100 Injection Pump and I am wondering if there is something I don't know about with 98's.

So we took the starter relay out and got a multimeter on the contacts in there and 85 and 86 are shorted together (ohmeter even proved it) and have power when the key is on. So they can put a lead to ground, stick the other lead in either 85/86 and get +12v, turning the key to start makes no difference. Those are the contacts for the coil so they should be opposite polarity to energize the coil.

Another thing is when you put a jumper from a positive power source to 30, it cranks over. 30 should have 12v positive constantly so that is another thing that bewilders me. When the coil energizes and connects 30 to 87, 87 sends power to the starter solenoid.

Now what I want to know is, is something really screwed up or is there something about the 98 that they didn't do right with the swap? As far as schematics show, all they needed to do was ground the neutral safety switch, the positive should be off the entire time until the key is in the on position, then it should connect 86 to positive power, energize the coil, and start the truck. I went over it many times with them since it sounded like they were just measuring the wrong contacts but they swore it was right so I am left with just wondering if it is something I don't know about or if they just got a few wires shorting each other.

Any ideas?
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1997-12V-NV4500-Dana 80/3.54/2wd-350k---21-27mpg
Removed AFC--No Plate--13.5* timing--BHAF--5" Exhaust--Valair Clutch
1994-Jeep Cherokee-5spd-3.07-4wd-202k---16-19mpg

Last edited by stodg73; 09-15-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 12-27-2010, 09:54 PM
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Was it a swap from an auto?
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:00 PM
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Numbers 85 and 86 should have almost no resistance between them since there is a wire running between them (coil).
Where is this relay located that you are playing with PDC or firewall?
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1996 RAM "Custom Ground" 100 plate 3/4 forward, 300 injectors, 16.5 timing, Goerends Auto = 365HP, 833TQ Third Gen Rims, Aluminum Headache Rack
Duct Tape can't fix stupid, BUT it can muffle the sound
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:13 PM
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Yeah he made it a manual. He is in Tennessee so I can't personally mess with it. It is the starter solenoid relay in the fuse box on the drivers side fender. I know how the thing is supposed to work just wondering if his is all screwed up or if it is just me not knowing something.

It is supposed to work by making 85 and 86 different polarities and energizing the coil. That then sends power from 30 to 87, and 87 goes to the starter relay.

His has positive power on 85 and 86, proved this several times, like they are shorted together. The other weird thing is shorting 30 to a positive source like the fuse panel feeders, will make the truck crank over. This is all with the relay out and just messing with the relay socket connectors. I asked them several times if they were sure and they said they were but I still wonder. I mean with the relay out, 30 CAN'T be tied to 87, there is nothing there, so how is it cranking.. I think I will try and get some 98 fuse box pics and of the relay orientation and such since it is an updated box and I can't just tell them which connection to use with it being different. I think it is the same box as all 24V's use so probably the same relay, I just need someone to take a pic of the box AND the lid (map on the bottom) next to it so I can see for myself, then show me the bottom of the relay it uses so I can decipher it and be able to tell them exactly what they should be seeing. I swear they are just measuring 86 (the positive coil side) and 30 (has constant positive power). But I can't prove it till I get pics from someone with that style fuse box. The only thing is, he says he also has power on 30, so 30/85/86 all have positive power, which that can't be right cause giving 30 power with the jumper wire and it cranking would be interesting to do when it already had positive power to begin with, hmmm, I need to talk to him some more lol.
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1997-12V-NV4500-Dana 80/3.54/2wd-350k---21-27mpg
Removed AFC--No Plate--13.5* timing--BHAF--5" Exhaust--Valair Clutch
1994-Jeep Cherokee-5spd-3.07-4wd-202k---16-19mpg

Last edited by ISX; 12-27-2010 at 10:16 PM.
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Old 12-27-2010, 10:37 PM
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According to the Haynes Manual:
86 goes to the Clutch Pedal Position Switch then to IGN Switch
85 Goes to Ground
87 Goes to the starter/fuel shutdown relay
30 Goes to the Fuse # 2 for direct power

The Coil is between 85 & 86; looks straight through.

If he is getting the engine to crank over with power straight to 30, the relay is bad.


He needs to check fuse # 2 and # 3, these are 40amp fuses that supply power to the switch and the starter circuit.
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Last edited by stodg73; 12-27-2010 at 11:06 PM. Reason: Goof Up and more info added
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:23 PM
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If he jumpers it from 30 - 87 does the starter work?

85 goes to ground 86 to the IGN switch to turn on the coil and complete the circuit.
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O.O., 01.5, Dodge, 2500, High Output (H.O.) Cummins Turbo Diesel (245/505), Quad Cab Long Bed (QCLB), 4x4, Sport, Original Bosch VP 44 Injection Pump, 6 Speed/NV5600 Transmission, 3.55 Gears, 105k, currently stock engine, Fram Air Filter, 285/75R16s, Glow Shift Gauges: Fuel Pressure (FP), Boost, Exhaust Gas Temperature (EGT), Oil Temperature, SMARTY@1, Airtex lift pump 19 psi @ idle, 14 psi @ WOT, Propane Injection, 2 Stroke Oil, Intake Air Temperature (IAT) Fooler = Better MPG, Bed Lined, Chrome Nerf Bars, more to come!!

Toys:
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'05 Suzuki, GSX1300R, Hayabusa, All Stock, #3('00 blown engine, '00 stolen, & '05)
The complete live & learn and pass it on by H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
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Old 12-27-2010, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stodg73 View Post
According to the Haynes Manual:
86 goes to the Clutch Pedal Position Switch then to IGN Switch
85 Goes to Ground
87 Goes to the starter/fuel shutdown relay
30 Goes to the Fuse # 2 for direct power

The Coil is between 85 & 86; looks straight through.

If he is getting the engine to crank over with power straight to 30, the relay is bad.


He needs to check fuse # 2 and # 3, these are 40amp fuses that supply power to the switch and the starter circuit.
The relay was not hooked up, he hooked a jumper straight to 30 and it cranked, now you see why I see an issue. I think they just looked at it wrong so were on the wrong connection.

They get power everywhere so fuses are good, even power where it shouldn't be lol.
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1997-12V-NV4500-Dana 80/3.54/2wd-350k---21-27mpg
Removed AFC--No Plate--13.5* timing--BHAF--5" Exhaust--Valair Clutch
1994-Jeep Cherokee-5spd-3.07-4wd-202k---16-19mpg
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Old 12-28-2010, 08:33 AM
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I do know that you can crank over these engines with nothing but a test light probing connectors. Have them check the wiring that came from the neutral safety switch. The one for the auto is a three wire connection switch that screwed into the left side of the transmission. One wire is for the 12v+, one is the neutral safety, and the other is the back up lights. Are they sure they have the neutral safety wired properly?
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1996 RAM "Custom Ground" 100 plate 3/4 forward, 300 injectors, 16.5 timing, Goerends Auto = 365HP, 833TQ Third Gen Rims, Aluminum Headache Rack
Duct Tape can't fix stupid, BUT it can muffle the sound
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Old 12-28-2010, 11:08 AM
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I'm still trying to get a straight answer on if they even measured the relay socket right. They said they grounded the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS), though I am having doubts haha. I will get some solid answers eventually.
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1997-12V-NV4500-Dana 80/3.54/2wd-350k---21-27mpg
Removed AFC--No Plate--13.5* timing--BHAF--5" Exhaust--Valair Clutch
1994-Jeep Cherokee-5spd-3.07-4wd-202k---16-19mpg

Last edited by stodg73; 09-15-2012 at 08:29 AM.
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